Minutes from Careers Advisory Forum
Monday 21 November 2022: 10.00 am - 11.30 am in Adelaide House, Belfast
Attendees:
- Judith Gillespie, CAF Chair
- Maxine Judge, Education Authority
- Carol Fitzsimons, Young Enterprise NI
- Sharon King, CCEA
- Peter Dobbin, Assumption Grammar School
- Sandra Bailie, NICVA
- Claire Henderson, SERC
- Paula Leathem, NI Chamber of Commerce
- Lisa Toland, SOLACE
- Gearoid Rafferty, ETI
- Kieran Harding, BITC
- Conal Baxter, deputising for Charlene Brookes, Parenting NI interim member
- Angela Scanlon, Ulster University
Apologies:
- Julie Gorman, NIC-ICTU
- Caroline van der Feltz, CBI
- Colin Downey, Disability Action
- Roger Pollen, FSB
Officials in attendance (all DfE, except where stated):
- Heather Cousins
- Clem Athanasiou
- Lucy Marten
- Paul Liddy, Careers Service
- Raymond McAuley, Careers Service
- Jillian Strain, Careers Service
- Nuala McComb, Careers Service
- Jack Ward, Careers Service
- Gareth Edge (DE)
Guest speaker
- Rose Mary Stalker, Founder, 4CUR Future
Welcome
1. The chair welcomed everyone to the meeting, noting deputies in attendance, as well as apologies from members unable to attend. The chair extended her good wishes to Paul Liddy (PD), who recently assumed the role of acting Grade 7 of the Careers Service, while noting that this would be her last meeting as forum chair.
The future of Careers Advisory Forum meetings
2 In acknowledging the end of her tenure in the CAF, as well as the present lack of NI Executive, the chair invited Clement Athanasiou (CA) to discuss the future of forum meetings with the CAF members.
2.1 CA began by acknowledging that the NI careers system features prominently in the current strategic direction of the department, specifically in the Skills Strategy; the Transition of Young People (14-19) into Careers; and the Independent Review of Careers Guidance, published earlier this year. CA advised that with this level of extensive, ongoing work to be progressed, there are no plans for a standalone careers strategy. Additionally, CA outlined how the implications of not having the NI Executive in place mean that there is no opportunity to make new decisions that are significant, cross-cutting or controversial and that only work that commenced prior to the end of the previous NI Executive can be progressed.
2.2 Taking into account all of the above issues, CA therefore proposed that the current, steady state CAF meetings be paused temporarily in favour of a parallel approach with electronic updates on work within the careers landscape and bespoke engagement on strategically important projects, such as the Skills and Careers portal and quality standards. This would allow the departments to continue to benefit from the valuable input of the CAF membership in respect of ongoing careers-related developments. CA advised that the long-term position will be dependent on views of future Ministers and would be revisited on that basis – especially should the need for a dedicated careers strategy be expressed. CA opened the discussion to welcome the CAF members’ views on the proposed approach.
2.3 Judith Gillespie (JG) acknowledged the merit in pausing the CAF meeting schedule, while the landscape develops regarding the Executive and appointment of future ministers. JG expressed the need for definitive plans to be put in place in the meantime to take forward the Careers Portal and Quality Standards projects, so that momentum is maintained. JG noted that as such, ongoing engagement, rather than twice yearly meetings, could be helpful.
2.4 A discussion about the NI Skills Strategy ensued, including a question regarding its scope. CA outlined that it was in the early stages and currently in shadow form but that it was intended to be a top line advisory board on the wider skills system. He indicated the possibility of sub-groups being formed, which might potentially embrace the CAF membership, especially if the NI Skills Council had a particular interest in a careers strategy. The CAF membership underlined the need for adults to be included and not just the 14-19 constituency.
2.5 It was commented that this is a timely juncture to reflect on the careers landscape and CA was asked to provide an insight on the remit of the Skills Council and its membership. The cohesion that CAF gives to DE and DfE was pointed out and concern was expressed that this could be lost through a lack of a discrete careers strategy. CA acknowledged this view and commented that there is a wide range of skills initiatives and that careers features in all of them as an important part of the wider skills landscape. CA undertook to provide further detail on the role of the NI Skills Council, to be disseminated through the CAF Secretariat.
Action Point 1 – CAF Secretariat to disseminate information on the Skills Council to members.
2.6 A view was raised that there are many small groups working individually, cautioning against silo-working. The importance of cohesion in the outworking of the various strategies was noted and it was asserted that said outworkings should reflect the fact that careers support is pertinent to all age groups, not just the 14-19 cohort. This should also be reflected in the aims and representation of the Skills Council.
Advice 1 – It is important that the outworkings of current strategy are cohesive and reflect the need for all-age careers support.
2.7 A discussion ensued around the diversity and commitment demonstrated by members, with concern expressed that, without the CAF meetings, the representation which CAF provides could be lost. It was commented that there are few forums which represent age ranges from four right through the life span so comprehensively and that one of the CAF’s main values is the breadth of perspectives it provides.
2.8 This view was reinforced by the comment that CAF members collectively embody a wide range of skills and knowledge. Whilst acknowledging that strategic decisions cannot be made at the current juncture, the continuation of the good work of the CAF is needed, regardless of present political stasis. JG reiterated that her understanding of CA’s proposal was that CAF meetings should be paused, not engagement with members.
2.9 A view was expressed that the pausing of meetings provides an opportunity to see through current actions. Efforts should be refocused to produce tangible outcomes with regards to the portal and quality standards. It was stated that the portal represents a significant opportunity to bring to fruition something for which the CAF has long advocated and that members would be keen to be involved, by email or ad hoc online meetings, as required.
2.10 CA agreed that development of the portal will require user testing by a wide cohort of citizens, as well as engagement with a range of different stakeholders.
Advice 2 – It is vital to consider the broad range of users who will access the Careers Portal; departments should engage widely with stakeholders and undertake testing with a broad spectrum of citizens.
2.11 CA commented that he will reflect on how the CAF’s views can best be integrated into consultation on issues such as the portal, in order to maintain integrity of vision there may be scope to amend the terms of reference to set up a discrete reference group in respect of the portal. The pause in the meetings provides the opportunity to reflect on what the careers landscape looks like and what input CAF can usefully provide. CA noted that virtual communications and platforms could provide a useful medium to support engagement on the ongoing issues relevant to the area careers, outside the priority projects.
2.12 While acknowledging the need to avoid duplication of effort, it was commented that it would be prudent to identify key check-in points, in order to ensure that all feedback has been picked up and ensure that the themes emerging from the 14-19 work are interwoven into careers provision. The importance of ensuring that learner voice and agency are represented was underlined, along with maintaining focus on the common goal. The importance of lifelong learning was also affirmed and should be embedded at all stages.
213 CA acknowledged the importance of lifelong learning, noting that this is a core tenet of the Skills Strategy and also applies across many other interventions. CA thanked the members for all the viewpoints articulated.
2.14 The chair thanked the forum for the interesting, useful and honest discussion, commenting that CAF is an immensely valuable resource and the meeting had shown the extent of added value its membership could bring. In summarising the members’ contributions, the Chair advised that the pausing of CAF meetings does not mean that momentum should be lost on good work undertaken by the CAF and that there is scope for a continuing level of tactical engagement.
2.15 The chair encouraged officials to make the most of the opportunities offered by IT for virtual meetings and subgroups, commenting that preparatory work should be taken forward in terms of careers so that when the executive reconvenes, Ministers can “pick the ingredients” required to advance the careers theme.
4C UR Future presentation
3 Rose Mary Stalker (RS), founder of 4C UR Future, delivered a short presentation on the live events that the organisation had delivered in local post-primary schools across Northern Ireland and the feedback that had been received from pupils, teachers and stakeholders following same.
3.1 RS explained that 4CUR Future is a community interest, not-for-profit organisation which aims to inspire, inform and enable young people in Northern Ireland to make empowered career choices, so that they can realise their potential. Delivery methods includes live, person-centred events, as well as a website and an app, with the launch of a portal scheduled in the next few weeks.
3.2 RS advised that data gathered at this full-scale pilot, from participants following live events has been very positive, with young people relating well to the volunteers participating in the events. Another theme emerging from feedback was the opportunity for peer group recognition the events provide. The CAF chair commented that she was struck by the energy and engagement of the live event she had observed in Newtownards.
3.3 A CAF member commented that their organisation had collaborated with 4C UR Future on the events and noted the importance of young people being able to see the importance of soft skills attributes. It was also expressed that the live events provided the opportunity for schools, employers and other stakeholders to have a more joined-up approach to careers.
3.4 A query was raised regarding the key challenges 4C UR Future face as they roll out delivery across NI. RS responded that funding is the key challenge, the organisation’s goal is to be able to offer every young person in Northern Ireland the opportunity to participate in a live event.
3.5 A discussion ensued regarding the importance of having a joined-up approach, given the fact that the Careers Service is also developing a portal. CA agreed, noting that there will be a review of the current landscape in order to map out all other current provision and this will be fed into the design phase of the future Skills and Careers platform. RS concurred, stating that it is vital to make the most of opportunities to synergise. The Chair summarised the discussion by stating that development of skills/careers portals should maximise stakeholder engagement and take account of the range of work currently underway, to avoid duplication.
Advice 3 – Development of skills/careers portals should maximise stakeholder engagement and take account of the range of work currently underway, to avoid duplication.
Action and advice logs
4 CAF Secretariat noted that all previous advice items have been noted and that the action log is up-to-date, with the exception of two ongoing issues on which Gareth Edge (GE) would update the forum.
4.1 In the previous meeting, it had been determined that Peter Dobbin (PD) would chair a sub-group of post-primary representatives and feedback key emerging themes at forum meetings. GE explained that work has been ongoing over the past 12 months to establish an Education Authority NI School leadership forum with broad representation from every sector, phase and school type across NI, in order to bring cohesion to all of the reference and stakeholder groups already in existence. There are almost ninety members, explained GE, with each member representing a principal group or cluster. The sub-group of post-primary principal representatives will therefore be drawn from the forum’s membership.
4.2 It was commented that it will be important to ensure SEN representation in the group. It was agreed that SEN/neurodiversity representation will be key.
4.3 The issue of training for careers teachers was tabled at the previous meeting and GE confirmed that DE have been working with the EA on this point. DE and EA are investigating options and GE confirmed that a meeting with a provider has been scheduled for 30 November 2022.
4.4 CAF Secretariat confirmed no further correspondence has been received since the last meeting.
4.5 The forum agreed that the minutes of the previous meeting were a true and accurate reflection of what had been discussed.
DfE update
5 Paul Liddy (PL) delivered a brief update in regard to DfE developments since the last meeting. PL confirmed the continuation of work on common quality standards in regard to careers guidance provision. This will aim to address OECD research findings regarding inconsistencies in the delivery and quality of careers advice and will be taken forward by a steering group comprised of DfE Careers Strategy Delivery & Performance Branch and further and higher education stakeholders. The group will also consult with stakeholders/experts, as and when required.
5.1 PL explained that the group will review recent research and literature; consider what quality assurance measures are currently in place; and identify best practice examples, both within the group and in other jurisdictions. The group will produce a report comprising current assurance measures and literature review; set out expected outcomes of a successful careers guidance system, which can be measured to evaluate impact and accountability; agree and design a set of common quality standards and agree a system to ensure adherence. The projected completion date of this project is September 2023.
5.2 PL went on to explain the current position with regards to the careers portal and thanked the CAF for their advice to date, particularly with regard to accessibility; look and feel of the interface and links to other relevant information. The Careers Service will be engaging the services of the DoF Innovation Lab in order to produce the portal, which will embrace all technologies and be a resource for pupils, teachers and parents, providing guidance on careers and study options, as well as job profiles.
5.3 The department is currently undertaking a landscape review in preparation for the DoF Innovation Lab coming on board; this will comprise engagement with all stakeholder groups and feedback from this will inform specification and business case. PL noted that while the Careers portal is a strategic priority, funding for same is business case dependent.
5.4 CAF members reiterated the need to be mindful of the needs of adult clients in the development of the careers portal, given the significant skills deficit in NI. Members noted that careers guidance is not a single point destination. The issue of embedding of career-related gender stereotypes at an early stage was also reinforced. Finally, members asserted the need for care in the language and terminology utilised in the careers portal.
DE update
6 GE delivered a short update on developments in the Department of Education. Further to his previous update on the careers initiative being trialled at St. Mary’s Primary School in Pomeroy (based on England’s Primary Futures initiative), GE advised that DE were progressing with the Drawing the Future initiative to all primary schools. A final report will be drafted by Chris Percy and Dr Deirdre Hughes with a focus on gender stereotypes pertaining to careers, to form a baseline. It is anticipated that the report resulting from this will be completed by the end of the school year.
6.1 CAF members welcomed this news, sharing anecdotal evidence from their respective areas of experience in regard to embedded gender-related career stereotypes.
6.2 It was enquired whether measures in GB relating to “levelling up” had been addressed in a NI context. CA undertook to explore this point.
Action Point 2 – CA to provide clarity on NI engagement with Levelling Up agenda.
6.3 The CAF chair thanked PL and GE for their updates, welcoming the work on the Drawing the Future initiative; common quality standards and careers portal and commented that it was helpful to see progression of tangible actions on these topics.
Thanks to the CAF chair
7 CA and Heather Cousins (HC) both paid tribute to the CAF chair for her contributions to the careers system in NI over the past seven years, notably the direction provided to the CAF’s developing advisory approach as it set up sub-groups to examine various dimensions of emerging careers work, including school employer engagement, work experience in schools and other themes that have since aligned with more recent, yet related work, towards the 14-19 Transformation project and Framework.
7.1 CA noted that the current consideration of a Careers Portal for Northern Ireland has its origins in the Careers Advisory Forum, where the chair’s regular advocacy for a careers portal since it was first mooted has contributed to the current direction of travel as the department works towards making it a reality.
7.2 CA also recognised the chair’s engagement with the Skills Strategy Advisory Group, as well as her contributions to workshops focused on the 14-19 Transformation Project and representational roles at careers-related events across Northern Ireland.
7.3 CA and HC thanked the chair for her leadership and advocacy for careers and extended their very best wishes for the future. These good wishes were echoed by the CAF membership.
7.4 The chair closed the meeting by commending all CAF members for their contributions and support during her tenure, and also extended her thanks to DE and DfE officials for their ongoing work in furtherance of careers education and guidance in Northern Ireland.